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Dawntide alt theory
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I'd like to use this thread to discuss the pros, cons and consequences of alts in Dawntide. The thread 'One char per account' turned into a bit of a flame war between me and boxfetish, but it provides the fundament for this thread. It might seem i have an unhealthy interest in the subject, but i'm twisted like that; i have a phd in sociology and i'm an inveterate roleplayer (both pen-and-paper rpgs and mmorpgs).
The purpose of this thread is twofold: i want to understand the social mechanics of alts in mmorpgs, and i expect that WAI wants to have a better understanding of what alts will do to Dawntide.
Ideally, people will post 'Dawntide needs lots of alts because this-and-that' or 'alts will ruin the game because something-or-other', and we can discuss the conditions, consequences and ramifications of alts in Dawntide.
Anyway, it is the design goals of Dawntide as a mmorpg that determine what consequences are negative and what are positive. For instance, Dawntide (well, as far as i know, anyway) aims at having a player-driven economy where the services and goods of crafters are in demand. Hence, players can't be allowed to be too self-sufficient.
To avoid wall-of-texts i'll post some in-depth pieces separately.
DAWNTIDE ALT THEORY: IMMERSION & META-GAMING
In contrast to interdependence, immersion is a less clear-cut issue. To begin with, what is immersion? I suspect that different people judge a game world as immersive or not on different criteria. To me, immersion is the feeling that your character partakes of a living, breathing world as a living, breathing person, e.g. a temporary suspension of disbelief. A game world is immersive if it can foster this experience. Now, i'm a roleplayer; a huge chunk of my immersion depends on other players acting believably. Most people aren't roleplayers and don't act in character, and i'm fine with that – it means that my moments of immersion are sporadic, but fairly magical when they do happen.
Dawntide is a game with full loot, free-for-all pvp and territorial battles. In the 'one char per account' thread, boxfetish says that "most people who play these games are insanely competitive and will meta-game, rape, and cheat the game every chance they get". He also says that if alts represent a competitive advantage, anyone who does not create alts to gain that advantage will be competitively disadvantaged. And i agree; competitive players will meta-game to gain whatever advantages there are and will pursue the most competitive 'builds' that theorycrafting can produce.
Where i and boxfetish seem to disagree is whether having alts will lead to more meta-gaming or less meta-gaming. I think that alts lead to less meta-gaming, because alts allow the competitive players (and everyone else) to explore non-competitive character concepts. I'd argue that alts will actually enrich the game world and make it more immersive, since more of the possible niches will be populated; the probability of meeting a character that is not a flavor-of-the-month build increases with the number of alts. Boxfetish seems to think the opposite is true; i'll let him explain his position.
There are two other issues related to immersion and meta-gaming:
-- Are competitive players a problem when it comes to immersion, and should WAI discourage one or the other?
-- Should immersion be a design goal for Dawntide, and how can WAI make Dawntide immersive?
Where i and boxfetish seem to disagree is whether having alts will lead to more meta-gaming or less meta-gaming. I think that alts lead to less meta-gaming, because alts allow the competitive players (and everyone else) to explore non-competitive character concepts. I'd argue that alts will actually enrich the game world and make it more immersive, since more of the possible niches will be populated; the probability of meeting a character that is not a flavor-of-the-month build increases with the number of alts. Boxfetish seems to think the opposite is true; i'll let him explain his position.
I disagree, the one character per server concept is in my view more supportive of in-game immersion than any conceivable multi-character per player concept. It leads to more specialization, more accountability, and more player attachment/association to that one single virtual identity. To me that's not even opinion, that's fact. Where opinion comes into it is whether the immersion and other benefits of the single character concept outweigh the perceived benefits of having multiple characters. Clearly from your statements Mikkling while you value immersion, you value having alts more.
To your particular points quoted above. It may be true that having alts results in more experimental character builds. However, whether true or not it does not change that single character leads to more specialization, accountability, and player attachment/association with a character, all of which are key in promoting in-game immersion. Roleplayers and gamers interested in immersion will make varied character builds regardless of whether there's alts or a single character... only very poor game balance will alter this like early Shadowbane with Healer Channelers. Power/meta gamers aren't going to suddenly start roleplaying with subpar character builds because you offer them alts. They'll just make min/maxed characters for every situation, need, and style of play they think they might enjoy.
..and to others that would say.. "ok, but people will just buy extra accounts anyway",... This is true, unfortunately there's little that can be done about that. It doesn't justify opening the flood gates with mutliple characters per server... At the very least this way the developers get more money from these people that in turn can be used to further develop the game, which benefits everyone.
There are two other issues related to immersion and meta-gaming:
-- Are competitive players a problem when it comes to immersion, and should WAI discourage one or the other?
-- Should immersion be a design goal for Dawntide, and how can WAI make Dawntide immersive?
From what I've read Immersion is a principle design goal of Dawntide, it's a large part of what's attracted me to this game. If it isn't a major design goal, I would appreciate if WAI would come out and say so, rather than lead me on like AV did with Darkfall. I'll quietly move on and cease wasting my time.
Most gamers are competitive Mikkling, that's not a problem. The problem is not a small amount of gamers are competitive to the point that they will do almost anything to "win". Worse yet for game's like this many of the big gaming guilds that have been around for years and frequently get into betas only to dominate the gaming landscape on release with all the expliots they figured out during testing happen to be full of players that have this mentality. They poison the game environment with their culture of metagaming and cheating, forcing others to either play the same way or get crushed.
So, yes these players are a problem, they should be discouraged, and WAI if they want their game to last will have to expend considerable time and resources to combating that approach to playing.
Which brings me to my own pet peeve about Dawntide... WAI if you want your game lore to mean anything in PvP and territorial conquest you have to give benefits to those that follow the lore and penalize those that ignore it to become "All Race" Clans/factions. Otherwise eventually it will just be "All Race" Factions vs "All Race" Factions. Why? Because being "All Race" has a huge advantage in of its own in that it means you can recruit everyone and ally anyone... and in these game's numbers matter.
What's the value of immersion if there isn't even a shared reference of lore that builds the framework of the game world we immerse ourselves in?
In EQ I played 16 alts on two accounts for 6 years.
I've now played Vanguard for 3 years, with 17 alts on two accounts.
The main reason I like to play alts, aside from the variety of game play, is that I feel like I miss a lot of what a game has to offer if I am limited to one character. Also, I often only have a short time to play, and if I can't find a group right away I 2-box and duo with myself.
In Star Wars Galaxies I had two characters on different servers, but it was nowhere near as much fun has having alts on the same server.
Immersion is very important to me, but it's more about feeling like I'm really in this virtual world than anything else. Which alt I'm playing, or how other players RP or not does not affect my immersion (usually). I also spend 99% of the time in 1st person view to enhance immersion.
I guess it all boils down to having alts lets me experience more of the game than I can get with a single character.
Awesome. Obviously, I completely agree with Xorv. Think I'll sit this one out, though.
One long comment before I bow out:
We argued and dissected this topic for years on the Darkfall forums and I remember doing so during SWGs development as well.
Aventurine themselves wanted us to argue it out and hosted an official debate thread for that purpose.
Before that official thread, there was the occasional thread that polled and debated this topic. They were usually split 50/50 or even slightly in favor of multiple characters.
During the official thread a strange phenomena began to happen. People who were in favor of multiple characters started "defecting" to the other side. Gradually at first, but after many months and a dozen or so threads the percentages of those who wanted single characters was >70% and those who wanted multiple characters was <30%. We are talking thousands of votes and responses in these threads too. Almost everyone was participating.
If I had a dollar for every post I saw that said "I used to want mulitple characters, but now that I have heard the arguments on both sides, I definitely want single characters", I would be a rich man.
Why am I rambling on about this? Because, what I have noticed following this debate, in Darkfall, in SWG, and here, is that those who have already made up their minds one way or the other, start with the assumption that the game either 'must have alts' or 'can't have alts', and then work backwards from there and carefully choose their arguments and examples to fit that apriorism.
Those who haven't really though about the issue too much or who haven't been able to decide (blank slates, if you will), tend to be swayed by the single character "arguments" and arrive at the single character position based on the merits of the arguments and the relative weights they place on the trade offs between each "system".
This has been my observation, at any rate.
Enjoy the debate.
Mikkling, I really feel like your thread deserves a response here because you put a lot of effort into it, but I can't sell myself on your interdependence analysis. I think you may be a little categorical in your conclusion that interdependence is only a factor if players have access to all skills (as opposed to 4/5 or 4.9/5), while it's probably more dimensional in reality - i.e., the less of the game's skills the average player have access to, the more dependent on other players you are. There comes a point, of course, where a single character becomes too powerless to be fun to play, and that should be taken into consideration too.
Xorv, in regards to your comments on ARAC factions: there's nothing in the Dawntide lore that supports the penalizing of ARAC factions. It would, in fact, contradict our lore. 
Xorv, in regards to your comments on ARAC factions: there's nothing in the Dawntide lore that supports the penalizing of ARAC factions. It would, in fact, contradict our lore.
So, all of the races are friendly with one another? I would think that even if they weren't enemies, that a guild that was a single race guild might be more cohesive than a multi-race guild and therefore it could be an option to give single race guilds some kind of buff to symbolize this.
I think you may be a little categorical in your conclusion that interdependence is only a factor if players have access to all skills (as opposed to 4/5 or 4.9/5), while it's probably more dimensional in reality - i.e., the less of the game's skills the average player have access to, the more dependent on other players you are
Yup, which is why i tried to stress that it was about access to all skills of interest, e.g. the skills needed to get kitted out with the top items needed to be competitive. Skills that are mostly for flavour or fashion don't enter into it. Interdependence will never be an issue for (a) those competitive enough to get multiple accounts on their own and (b) those in factions that are big or hardcore enough to have enough crafters to serve the members' crafting needs.
In any case, my main point with that post was to show that the argument "single-character accounts = interdependence; multi-character accounts = self-sufficiency" is often untrue because it fails to address the actual mechanisms that govern interdependence. As long as that point was clear, i'm happy.
Anyway, there's a thinly veiled suggestion in my original post: to maximize interdependence, spread the items that increase a character's fighting power across a lot of different types of items (not just weapons and armour, but enchantments, potions, scrolls, jewelry, food, utility items, etc).
Of course, that would give an advantage to those that do have access to all types of items, through either money or friends. A further suggestion, then, is to balance the power differential from items with making the combat system complex enough to reward player skill. Still, the hardcore players will always have the advantage over the casuals since they are likely to have both superior items and superior understanding of the combat system. Perhaps it's better to reduce the boost from items in general and make pvp more dependent on player skill (and team work, of course).
[S]ingle character leads to more specialization, accountability, and player attachment/association with a character, all of which are key in promoting in-game immersion.
Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by specialization and how it promotes immersion? I'm not sure i understand.
Why am I rambling on about this? Because, what I have noticed following this debate, in Darkfall, in SWG, and here, is that those who have already made up their minds one way or the other, start with the assumption that the game either 'must have alts' or 'can't have alts', and then work backwards from there and carefully choose their arguments and examples to fit that apriorism.
You know, Dawntide having alts or not is not a dealbreaker for me; i'll play this game as long as it has good roleplaying potential. I only started arguing with you because i found your rejection of alts too harsh.
DAWNTIDE ALT THEORY: INTERDEPENDENCE
Dawntide's economy is driven by the same basic logic that all agent-driven economies, real or virtual, revolves around – demand and supply. Supply is matter of players spending time on activities that bring stuff to the market. For some, crafting is fun in and of itself. Others craft for profit or for their faction. Demand is a matter of the level of self-sufficiency, the utility of crafted items and the time needed to craft those items.
Interdependence is the inverse of self-sufficiency – the degree to which players need other players to get things done. Interdependence is a good thing in a mmorpg. The number of alts is an issue when it comes to interdependence: the higher the number of characters that a player is allowed, the more skills the player has access to. The principle is as follows.
IF a player can have access to all skills of interest (e.g. the skills needed to craft all types of top items)
AND the time needed to craft top items (potions, foci, enchantments, weapons and armour and whatever may be needed to be badass) is small
THEN AND ONLY THEN will self-sufficiency be a problem in Dawntide.
Even if all players can be completely self-sufficient when it comes to crafting all manner necessary items, not all players will spend the time to craft everything they. Hence, there will be some demand regardless of the level of self-sufficiency.
Given the self-sufficiency logic, WAI can maintain interdependence while still allowing alts: WAI can tweak the the number of characters per account, number of skill points allowed per character, how items and types of items affect the competitiveness of characters, the time needed to craft all of those items and the skill tree itself.
In essence, interdependence can be expressed as (number of skills needed to be competitive)/(number of skills available to player). The number represents the number of players needed to kit out one player with all the top items needed to be competitive. If that number is 1 or lower, a player is totally self-sufficient. I'd say that that number should be 1.5 or higher to get a player-driven economy humming. If players are very competitive, the number can actually be lower, since competitiveness will drive a high demand for everything the players can't craft for themselves.