Topic: Open PVP and Full Loot - Dawntide

This topic has 45 voices, contains 334 replies, and was last updated by davan101 77 days ago.

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December 4, 2011 at 6:42 pm #10612
Esquire Player	There is no rant here. Want to see a rant from me? Go back thru the archives of the vet refuge forums at C6CD or the SOE SWG forums when SOE did the same thing for the 3rd time with C6CD. Most of the NGE threads have been deleted by SOE mods so you can’t find them anylonger. But, at C6CD, you will see rants from me. Believe me, I think I could write books on the subject. “We set a record!” That was a comment I seen from a Dawntide vet in global yesterday. More on than had ever been on. Why was that? Did it have something to do with my posting about Dawntide on the MMORPG.com Star Wars Galaxies Vet Refuge Forums? Maybe. And that post over there has only been up for a week. SWG vets want someplace else to go besides the EMU that could possibly draw all kinds of problems from LA (over the IP licence) and even SOE from the source code due to the fact that the EMU takes the original disks to even play. Just because they do not collect money from it does not necessarily mean that it is free from regress action via the courts. That is not the way IP law works. At the closing of SWG, it is commonly thought that the existing subs are somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000. Maybe not enough to make large IP payments to LA and then have SOE draw a profit also, but a nice tidy sum to have a start at Dawntide. There is no place for these guys to go and if Dawntide remains Full PVP and Full Loot Dawntide will not be that place either. I talked to an SWG crafter, in game here, yesterday also that all he did was play a crafter. Answered some of his questions in global as did others and when the subject of PVP came up, he said “PVP sux”. There is another sub Dawntide will not have if this game launches with this PVP plan. But would if he can play a crafter, set up a business, maybe a town, you know, all the things Dawntide already includes outside of this PVP system. GM Pathy, the 1st post you made on my 1st thread, you seemed like you were rather used to having people come in for a day or a single hour even and seeing them leave. I really do not believe that is just due to a “beta” condition, but more to what the game is planed to be, expecialy with Full PVP/Full Loot system. SWG players NEVER played the game you personaly want and all for the reasoning that has been discussed in this thread by others, myself, and even the problems you bring up with “PK”er that you mention. And right now, Dawntide is more F2P (open beta) than subscription model that some1 has to get their credit card out for. The fact remains that there are games out there, right now, that are full PVP/Full Loot to play if you want that. EVERY ONE OF THEM are very low sub numbers, even lower than SWG was/is at it’s closing. I’m sorry, but that system does not draw players and hasn’t even since UO. That was changed there as well. There are still a few “purists” out there but they are divided between quite a few games that already include this gameplay for them. SWG crafters/non combat players have nowhere else to go and they will come here is this is not a PVP system that griefs them just for their being in the game. This could even be expanded upon with a “dancer” profession that gives buffs to players who want are doing crafting/combat. Do you realise just how many women played a dancer over in SWG? I can tell you it was many. And from my experience not a bunch of women players (and they are out there) will ever consider a full PVP/Full Loot system. With what has happened in 1 week here, can you actulay say that the SWG-Koster model would not work for Dawntide? Would even the 10-30K subs that SWG had left after all of their massive changes with CU, NGE, and C6CD be a boon for Dawntide or at least enough to have that 2nd server maybe? And, as stated, SWG at it’s hay-day (before the changes) had upwards around 350,000 subscriptions that Dawntide would have to draw upon as well. I have betaed SW:TOR and I can say from experiencs that TOR will not surfice if your a hardcore SWG vet. Only the developers here could answer that question and I believe it is one they should consider, expecialy if they want to have a sucessful game and be able to make others off of the profit margins of this one. Think about it yourself, it’s probably really an easy question to answer even for some1 who wants a full PVP/FUll Loot system. This reply was modified 166 days ago by Esquire.
December 4, 2011 at 7:04 pm #10614
Esquire Player	And really, having re-read your posting, I couldn’t care less what the “Ipwndjooooo” crowd would say over my thread(s) or postings. Back in SWG, my wife would interupt my TV time when she seen griefers to have me log on, grab my jedi, and come into game and take them out. It is possible to enjoy PVP gameplay and not want a system that makes griefers have a reason to be. I have seen several player corspes in Dawntide, even with PVP turned off, killed by NPCs that I could of looted and have not looted a one. There is no sence in having a new player experience that and/or lead them out of the game before they had a chance to even see and experience what the game is and all of it’s facets.
December 4, 2011 at 9:05 pm #10616
GMPathy GameMaster	Esquire I appreciate the contents of your posts, and in many respects I dont disagree with your position, however I am confident the dev team can find a ballance that allows non-pvp players to thrive, by trading with those that wish to, and existing in the less dangerous zones. I played eve and swg and many more games without ever participating in PVP, although in some cases I was playing in a world without any protection. I agree there is a bigger market for players that dont want pvp but I dont make the decisions. I can assure you the lead dev, Wiz, is paying close attention to forums activity and will make changes as and when he feels its required. The budget is unlikely to allow for start up on more than one set of servers, so the decision is likely to be a critical one. I am sure that Wiz has sufficient experience in the industry to make a calculated decision, either way it wont make 100% of the potential customers happy. I am well known on this site for my epic threads, and my appetite for debate so no need to argue when our positions are obviously not alligned. I do understand and respect your opinion and I would love for Dawntide to captur just 5-10% of the ex-swg community, or some of the EVE exiles that dont like the cash ship changes. The simple fact is there are probably enough players worldwide to satisfy any decision made, so the long term health of one server has to be the primary objective.
December 5, 2011 at 4:25 am #10618
Esquire Player	It’s been a great debate, spirited but all that tells me is ev1 here is trying to make Dawntide the absolute best it can be for the buck. And isn’t that the reason why we’re all here in the 1st place in a beta? To find and quash bugs, to refine gameplay, and to bring new ideas and a sence of community to the developers. I full appreciate your position also. I have high hopes for this dev team from really nothing more than your fully transparent faith in them. And I haven’t seen that in a very, very long time as well. Hard to believe that it would take a small independant studio to bring me passion about a game again but these guys have and from talking to you in game and on these forums, you as well. Everyone I have talked to in game holds that passion and high hope for this game and the high probability that we all could indeed find our gaming home again. Be it from UO, SWG, or just tired of the mundane story based themeparks that AAA studios seem to clone out of the WoW world these days. Here’s hopeing for great decisions, even better development, and a prosperous launch for this game, it’s devs, and it’s players. This reply was modified 165 days ago by Esquire.
December 5, 2011 at 4:21 pm #10620
tyirian Player	Call me Carebear but i hope that WAI make a Server without Full loot. For me its frustrating, to craft some nice items, walk to the next city and get killed by some Gankers. I really like DT but i dislike the full loot system….
December 5, 2011 at 4:32 pm #10621
Draconan Player	Though I am pro full PvP, I also see the issues when combined with full loot. I enjoy PvP and enjoy challenging fights, the problem with full loot is that if I lose then I have to get another set of gear, so essentially challenging PvP where you have combat characters battling each other will be rarer, but griefing will be higher. If I want my faction to fair better against an opposing faction, the best way is to attack thier resources… ie keep thier gatherers and crafters dead so they can not effectively replace thier gear. Full loot full PvP does push players to griefing. Personally I would like to see looting reduced to what is in the players bags, with death doing large amounts of damage to equiped gear. Modify repair (which should be done anyway imo as currently repairing an item is the same whether .99 quality or .01) so you need an enchanter to repair runes in gear (otherwise enchanters are useless after gear is made).
December 5, 2011 at 5:31 pm #10622
Cindyb Player	Great point Draconan, in fact the best idea I have heard.. yes keep looting to what is in the bags..
December 5, 2011 at 5:51 pm #10623
GMPathy GameMaster	why? this penalises crafters more than pvp players…. A pvp player simply walks around with no bags at all, then combat is no risk all reward, as you could loot everything others are carrying including bags. This reply was modified 165 days ago by GMPathy.
December 5, 2011 at 6:59 pm #10625
Cindyb Player	its not a perfect world , was thinking of a little protection for the gathers ..thats why
December 5, 2011 at 7:19 pm #10626
GMPathy GameMaster	People seem to forget that nobody has a big “CRAFTER” label flashing above their head and you no nothing about amy person you meet in the game. They could have 100 or 700 skill points in combat, the thing is you never know even after the fight. You also dont know how close their friends are, if there is someone stealth 5ft away, or if they have a means of escape and are luring you into a trap. True full loot pvp SANDBOX games are few and far between and many of the old tactics are long forgotten from what I can see. There are many ways to skin a cat (or pvp player) Trying to avoid pvp is perfectly possible, and if you are careful you will never lose anything too valuable. Worst case scenario you loose one set of armour, a weapon, a few bags and tools and whatever you have gathered in the last couple of hours. A solo player will not be able to destroy a whole town while you and you faction are offline, or at least I would petition the devs constantly if it was possible. Likewise factional wars will hopefully be declared, to allow time for preperation and defence. Full loot pvp is always a scarey prospect for people that are not used to playing in that environment, but as long as their are mechanics that stop repeat killing (griefing) and to allow everybody an equal chance to escape combat if they are paying attention then there should be no issue. Running, stealth, magic are all likely methods of escape without considering working in small groups for faction gathering missions. You can quickly create content for several faction members by grouping to allow some crafters to gather, while the combat players kill the surrounding mobs, trading time for equipment or consumables. A good faction leader will be able to organise safe gathering for members, while offering the combat characters something to do. I got suckered into posting more opinionated guff … apologies :D
December 5, 2011 at 8:45 pm #10628
Esquire Player	Pathy. They will camp the spawn points or the caves in general. You know there will be “gank” squads looking for nothing except a crafter to pull the “Ipwndjoooo” mess on. “PK”ers as you call them, Griefers as I call them. Had a long talk with Tinker last night on TS and he explained to me the history of Dawntide PVP and even some of the exploits that griefers used, like fall thru the world, attack the crafter where even the crafter could not attack back. I’m sure there will be more of these as well, even after launch. Tinker’s group, and my group, will report the exploits but you and I both know that griefers will not. They will keep situations such as this for their own benefit and even be made angry at players for alerting devs to their little “cheats”. I was told that there has been already a bunch of people that were ban-ed already for hacks and exploits. That’s another problem inherent with Full PVP, Full Loot systems. There will be active players looking for the 1 up and these things to be able to capitolize on others people’s game labor. You and I both already know that these griefers will not “gather”. They will look for gatherers and simply take what others have done. All of this is not condusive to a large playerbase. And, it has been my experience that when you ban one, they will simply make another free email account and be right back at it in the next hour. Or, another group comes in and does exactly the same thing. You or the developers will NEVER be able to get rid of these folks as no game ever has before and that included even the AAA MMO studios who have large bugects and many GMs. The probelm is simply Full PVP and Full Loot. The system in ripe for exploits, hacks, bad mannered gameplay and rewards players for doing so. It is the system, itself, that is to blame for this not just the players. Factional Wars should be done the same exact way that Koster did them over in SWG. One has to declare, the other has to accept. That is the ONLY fair way to do it and even then, over there, crafters and entertainers were target #1 with these folks. It seems the easy kill tastes the best for griefers. This reply was modified 165 days ago by Esquire.
December 5, 2011 at 9:49 pm #10632
Cindyb Player	yeap but no one wants to listen thats why I just keep it short , can tell u one way to prove this , at launch have one server full pvp and loot , have one that is not pvp or that is modified in some way that is more care bear friendly , lets see which one has larger population.. If I am wrong I will purchase 10 life time memberships for WAI to give away..
December 6, 2011 at 6:35 am #10636
Xix13 Player	I’m fully with Esquire in this discussion, but let them try it. Maybe they have a method to prevent PKing that hasn’t been tried before. Personally, I think Lineage II’s recent incarnation does as good a job as possible. I was running to a town and an annoying person was trying to get me into a fight (that I knew I’d lose). In L2, if you’re attacked, and DO NOT fight back, then the killer gets a HUGE “reputation” penalty that can take virtually forever to work off. The penalty incurred will make town NPCs attack him on sight, no vendors will allow him to buy/sell, he’ll be “red-named” and free for anybody to attack at any time with no penalty, and he will gain no XP or SP until the penalty is worked off. This makes only those who TRULY want to be murderers PK, and they usually do it on an alt they don’t care much about. It certainly stopped the person attacking me because I simply refused to be drawn in. And she was NOT on an alt. :-) But the devs will try it an see. If it doesn’t work as intended, they’ll change the system. True, launch is critical, but for a smaller concern, living on word of mouth, I think recovery is far more possible than for the larger folks that have invested huge amounts of hype… er, marketing. I still point to UO. They went to Trammel for a reason, not on a whim. I’d look to that as a case study. Maybe the worst possible thing for the whole full-loot, open-PvP crowd happened very early in the MMO lifecycle: when the dude killed Lord British. You do NOT kill the game’s lead and expect things to stay status quo. lol Now, can we talk about corpse runs? O_O This reply was modified 164 days ago by Xix13.
December 6, 2011 at 12:23 pm #10638
GMPathy GameMaster	If you can ONLY die once to a pk then you can only lose what you have on you. I dont see this as much of a problem, even as a crafter. Respawn points in safe zones mean you can always re-equip without any further chance of death to a PK. Crafters NEED players being killed and engaging in combat to increase the market turnover, its simple economics. You dont have to walk around in the finest gear to go gather some wood, just put on some basic clothing and bags and take a couple of hatchets. Dont fill your bags completely and work with two or three other people, even if yuo get attacked someone is likely to escape unkilled. Walking around alone in a pvp game is just plain silly, I dont even go to my local city centre after dark alone as I BECOME a target just by doing so. Go with another person or a small group of friends you are much less likely to attract any problems. This is not a solo game, its a game for people to co-operate. The question of corpse runs is an interesting one, I would think most of the time they will be pretty pointless. If you get killed by another player, anything of value will be gone on your return, so maybe better not to try. Getting killed by a mob is about the only time it would be worth it as other players may not find your corpse and you can recover everything. Another point worth considering is that a PK cannot always loot everything you are carrying. They may not have the bag space to take everything you were using/carrying. They may also not get the chance tol oot everything before they have to engage in combat with someone else. I really do think people are making this into far too big an issue. I am not really a PVP player and I can think of ways to survive without engaging OR by making myself and unprofitable target. I am sure Wiz is reading all of this however and will make any changes he see’s appropriate.
December 6, 2011 at 1:52 pm #10639
GMPathy GameMaster	Been thinking a little outside the box on this, and trying to think of a way to partially protect players against losing everything they own when they get PK’d. I looked at other games and the ways they have used to make things a little easier, and thought back to the insurance systems in EVE. I then thought of ways to make this be transferable into this game without it adversly affecting the player economy too much, and this is what I came up with. All tools, equipment, bags, weapons, armour would be lootable items, any BASIC and UNCRAFTED resources would be split at time of death so that 50% is lootable by the PK or anyone else that gets the chance to loot the corpse. The other 50% is removed from the game world and held in “insurance” by the crown which can be bought back by the player at crown prices. This means the items are effectively removed from the game if the player has insufficient funds, or chooses not to buy them back. This 50% is effectively protected from being looted and always gives the players something back, even though they have lost its value they havent lost the gathering time. Aloow this buy back period to remain for the duration of the corpse degrade, so maybe 30mins to find the money and retreive it. This will also act as a money sink from the game, every time someone is killed some coin is removed from the economy. While I am not sure how possible this would be to impliment it seems that it cannot be abused by players, although if anyone can pick holes in it I would appreciate it. May well be that in terms of code and DB issues it may be too complex, or at least problematic. Its far from a perfect “safety net” for crafters but does allow them to consider that in PVP areas they wont lose everything they gather, just have to pay for it if they die, and also allows the PK to gain some equipment and some of the resources for themselves. This reply was modified 164 days ago by GMPathy.