 Xix13 Player
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The real problem with the arguement, GMPathy, is this. Just WHEN are you going to use that really uber enchanted gleamsteel sword? You don’t want to walk around with it for fear of gank squads, you don’t want to chance being aggro’d by a group of mobs in a high level area for fear of death and an impossible corpse run. Just when DO you use it? Killing bunnies in the safe zones? For me, that’s the whole issue with the “take only what you can afford to lose” arguement. I NEED the best equipment for those areas, but I can’t afford to lose the best equipment so it stays in the bank. Defeats the crafter needs stuf to break arguement too, since I’ll not be using that sword for more than RP. With structured PvP and some restrictions to looting, you CAN take that sword into a, e.g., RvR type situations for a keep battle. Or to that high level cave for that dragon-skinning mission. You don’t go alone, but usually, by the time you’re finished with those high level boss kills, after wading through the preliminary mobs (often known as “trash” mobs) and minions, your archer’s out of arrows, some of your equipment is having durability issues, (in UO, but thankfully not here…yet…your mage is out of regs), you’re out of pots, and that invis’d/stealth’d group of gankers waiting outside the cave takes not only your gleamsteel stuf, but whatever you skinned/looted from your hard work as well. To my mind, getting people to WANT to PvP is more important as a game mechanism than making them fear they will HAVE to PvP. Declared faction/guild/clan wars, flagging, high resource areas…these are things that make sandbox players WANT to PvP. DAoC maybe did it best, from all accounts, and its ashame that you can’t just replace a graphics engine with a new one and go from there. Maybe in the future that will become possible, and games that actually do it right won’t have to age so rapidly. |
 GMPathy GameMaster
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I am interested in finding this ballance, as much as the next person. I just dont want pvp dumbed down to 100% consent based OR the benefits of PK removed completely so that its not important at all. From my perspective, as a crafter, people want all the benefits with no penalities. They want the best materials, the best gear, the best products, huge profit margins THEN NO DANGER. That to me is very lopsided as a PVP/combat character must pay for equipment, pay for repairs, pay for boats/housing, fear every trade is a trap, being hunted every time they log in and they ALSO risk everything each time they attempt to PK. I am not just talking about Dawntide either, as I have played EVE happily in safespace and played WoW on pvp and pve servers. SWG was a different situation altogether, but the one that has stood the test of time has been EVE. Drop the best resources a long way from safe zones then people wanting to PK will be well away from new players and crafter, anyone seeking those resources sho go EXPECTING a fight. You will always get players that want an easy kill, by they wont be organised PK groups or even well equiped players, and more often than not there will be a counter side to the PK, there will be PK hunters. I do think these issues can be resolved by mechanics, and having PVE servers would be pointless. Yes they would be full, loads of people playing farmville in a MMORPG, but they would get bored and leave, eventually. Once you have built everything you want MORE to build and that creats a preasure on the dev team to create new objects and structures faster than players can build them. Whats the point in guard towers with no pvp, or seige engines with no mechanics to use them. The population would start demanding PVE dungeons and quests, all of which are time consuming to produce and much easier to complete, this is why games like wow dumb down content with repeatablce daily tasks and dungeon token systems. PVP is a necessary evil, form my perspective anyway, and controlling it is the job of the dev’s. IMPORTANT NOTE> ALL MY COMMENTS ARE OPINIONS AND DEBATE AND ARE PERSONAL, NOT RELATED TO DAWNTIDE SPECIFICALLY OR ARE THEY INTENDED FEATURES FOR THE FUTURE, please dont quote anything I say as fact, or planned. :D |
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Xix13 Player
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 ninurta Player
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GMPathy GameMaster
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 Draconan Player
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 Esquire Player
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OK, time to take off the “kid gloves”. lol PVP is no longer the same as it was in UO. It is ALL ABOUT cheats now. Personaly, I run an Alienware Area 51 with dual quad, 12 gigs of Ram, 7200 RPM hardrive, dual 1 gig vids, etc etc etc on a T1 line for net access. I have a G-105 board for making macros outside of any game. This rig is available to any1 and by itself is not a problem. It’s all what some1 does with it. I can dual-box. I had 9 accounts over in SWG and I could run 1 toon from EVERY 1 of those accounts on /follow /assist with macros made in game and on my board as a train. I could be my own group. I DIDN”T but there WERE others that did. I run NCSofts NProtect Gameguard personal to keep 3rd party programs out of my computer via games, and THEY DO HAPPEN!!!!!! SOE’s SWG had many known hacks (3rd party programs) used. There was the lag hack, the SF hack, 1 for 1/4 damage, etc etc etc and this was a game where the only reward for using these things was “I Win”. There was no full loot to further reward cheaters for using these things. I actualy looked into the “cheats” just for SWG and worked with Teesquared (the producer for SOE) to try and get some of these things limited. I found the NCSoft program and they do have a developer version that can be installed in a game that limits 3rd party programs and can be licened to other games but it is very expensive and even SOE did not want to spend the money for this. The NCSoft program even limits G-105 boards as it calls them a 3rd party program also. PVP is about cheats now. It’s about the “1-up”. It is no longer about “skill”, using your mind and the game mechanics to excel, it is just about cheats. SWG is NOT the only game to incur this mess also. ALL of them are getting this. There are even things for TOR now (google it) and TOR hasn’t even launched yet. No developer can keep up with this mess. There are even people trying to defeat Gameguard now so that will not be long, either. FUll PVP, FULL LOOT further rewards the more unscrupious player for doing so. That’s the EXACT reason why more players do not play the games out there now that includes this system. 1000 players, most of which use “cheats” just to think themselves better. That is what happened to SWG PVP and it’s TOTAL DEATH and there was not the in-game reward that this system includes. Entire “cheat” sites set up for nothing more than to sell these programs. I actual bought one and forwarded it to Teeaquared just to prove to SOE that they existed. Just for this reason alone, this system needs to be re-evaluated here. Unless, you actualy just want 1000 players running around looking for some1 that has just gotten in game (a noob to yell Ipwdjoooo at) PVP is now up for a matter of hours and I have already seen “carebear” in game chat from some1 that I would of NEVER expected it from. Let me tell you, the “carebear’s” 15 per/month spends just as good as your does. The “carebear’s” will keep this game going, not the hardcore PKers and this comes from a person who can/does enjoy PVP gameplay. If you really want this game to succeed in this market, you had better think about the “carebears” some. Wiz, I have never talked to you but heard alot about you. Is this what your going for here and your vision because that is what it will become. NProtect Gameguard is a very expensive licence and will end up ultimatly being defeated just the same as Norton/etc is/was. You will NEVER be able to keep up with the hackers. T2 had to admit this, himself and that was Sony Online Entertainment, a tripple A Studio, and their buget. A very few people doing these things can ruin it for the masses and can ruin your game as well. Take a good look at the other games that have tried this.
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 catnips Player
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 TheInternetMan Player
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There are a lot of tinfoil hats roaming this thread. If you’re going to make very large claims or generalizations it might be best to provide some decent citations. Anecdotal story #303,543 doesn’t hold much water to anyone who has visited online game forums for years. Without delving too much into game mechanics it’s really rather hard to use 3rd party programs in an abusive manner in a game where most of the interaction is server side. Things like wall climbing and speed hacking can easily be detected, as even small public World of Warcraft servers have removed cheating. In any game allowing an open PvP setting with a full loot atmosphere, players will have a variety of motivations for engaging in combat. Without resorting to any hypothetical situations, players will presumably want to kill each other for resource acquisition or sport. I am not sure where the notion comes from that PvP should be discouraged in any way, shape or form. As long as the rewards are great from engaging in PvP combat, the risk should be naturally waived. Players wishing to live in a more utopian society might be better suited to their own server or “safe island”. Those looking for a more difficult or lawless state of play, considerably more challenging, should be rewarded accordingly with in-game advancement. What I’m getting at is that the players who want to be peaceful should be able to without abuse, and those who want to fight, should be rewarded for accepting the challenge. The following two disgruntled groups arise from the aforementioned scenario: Non-PvP players wanting features or rewards PvP players can acquire Throwing a complex or convoluted solution at a simple issue is not the right thing to do by any means. I’m speaking of course about discouraging PVP by providing penalties for PVPing. It is rather simple, if a player does not want to engage in PVP, they should then direct themselves to a place where it is not occuring or permitted. The player who engages in PVP is inherently penalized by allowing his gear to be removed. The player who wishes to PVP without risk, is instructed to find the many many many MMOs which allow for such a situation. Dawntide cannot be all things to all people. The following factors cannot be removed from Dawntide, lest it be completely detached from the true sandbox genre: - Open World If Dawntide is moving in a less innovative and different direction at the current time, I would politely ask to be informed, so that I may leave and never come back. All of my statements I say as a player who is primarily peaceful, and has played many full loot/full PvP MMOs without issue. How interesting, emotional, and captivating is a world that is sterile, controlled, regulated?
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TheInternetMan Player
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Esquire Player
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Yeah, I know the theroy, the problem is, it doesn’t work. Lets look at some facts then if some1 doesn’t believe in “generalizations”. Here’s the current list of “sandbox”. Rysom – Patch 01 redesigned PVP, F2P up to a point. No meter on the website but 1 server, not full. Darkfall – No meter on site. 1 US server, 1 EU server, both not full Mortal Online – same as others and fantasy Wurm – PVP Server and PVE server. 354 on line when I checked. Those who would put forth that “sandbox” has to be full PVP/full loot better have a talk with Raph Koster who defined what “sandbox” actualy is. He built UO, which was the 1st,changed the PVP ruleset mid-game, and then built SWG without full loot and PVP in designated areas except for the unlocked alpha profession. It would seem that you can have “sandbox” without full PVP/full loot as Koster did it, not once but twice and He is the one who started, defined, and perfected “sandbox” MMORPGs. Let’s look at the Dawntide beta even. We “set a record” last weekend for the most on in this beta and it’s been up for what, 2 years? BTW, PVP was turned off when the record was set. It was turned on tonight. I seen exactly 5 people on. Hmmmm, why is that? And saying that all who do not like your particuliar version of PVP wants need to be directed to WoW is complete and utter bull. Story based themeparks do not have the crafting, open worlds, housing, deco, etc etc etc that “sandbox” seems to include. Contrary to popular belief there is alot more to a sandbox MMO than just PVP gameplay. I could say if PVP is all you want, there are plenty of X-box games which are online and include just that. Have at it. It is possible to enjoy the benefits of “living” in a virtual world without wanting to be “ganked”, griefed, and cheated by other participants. And stated again for fact, I PVPed in EVERY game I have tried. If you actualy believe that 3rd party programs are not used, with regularity, try some games that have a large population or even most games that do not. It is the normal now, not the exception. What do you actualy believe a G-105 board is then? It’s a 3rd party program that even I can use, I have 1. I’ve played (and subscribed to) SWG, AoC, WoW (God help me and only got to level 30 due to my son played it), TOR, STO, several others from indy studios. ALL of them had exploits/hackers rampant. You might try more games if you just haven’t seen it. I can appreciate people wanting PVP, I do as well. That’s why I originaly asked for these PVP areas to be limited. Then, a PVE server with PVP in a limited area which I actualy believe is the better solution. I hope they actualy go this route. It would be an interesting experiment and finaly put to rest which server type would get the most players/paying customers and provide the best profits to a gameing company.
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 Takoa Player
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 Cindyb Player
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GMPathy GameMaster
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I will say this one more time, there will be pve only areas, so the arguement of full pvp and full loot is void. While there are areas with no pvp it is not FULL PVP it is zoned pvp. Crossing the boundary is a player decision, which makes it a sandbox as you have BOTH options. I will guarentee that as a crafting player you will find a PVP faction that wants and needs your services, and if they want to pvp full time will support and defend you is they know anything about the way this style of game works. Players will always seek to abuse mechanics, hack, exploit, macro and every other way of making life easier, even if it is against the TOS. Not every payer thinks like that, and that is the job of the moderators and the dev’s to deal with those that dont play by the rules. Having a sandbox game without pvp is pointless, much like letting hackers and bots run riot is also counter productive for the developers. By making zoned levels of pvp you “hopefully” get the best of both worlds, allowing pvp to take place in a controlled fashion, and let the servers detect who is using speed hacks or godmode. Gaming companies dont like to advertise holes in there software, so banned accounts and players are not publicly named and shamed. That being said ALL games ban people, some for abusing other players in chat, some for 3rd party softeware and some for attemoting to hack game servers. People are banned all the time from every game you can imagine, the companies dont make it public out of embarresment and the people breaking the rules are hardly going to out themselves publicly. The point is all legitimate player want a fair game, the developers want a fair game, and the idea of beta is to find the loopholes and close as many as possible prior to launch. I am about 95% sure the direction of Dawntide wont change course and PVP will be in game at launch.. How that is implimented is not my decision but I have faith that Wiz adn the team will take on board tester opinion and try to make an enjoyable game for all types of player. Sorry for all the typo’s, so very tired today I can barely see what is certainly there :D
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Cindyb Player
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